I think that it will be maybe less academic that the other panels. And I think that we can start.

Thank you for this introduction. I would like to introduce to you the speakers on this stage. Natalia Vatsadze from Bouillion Group who initiated this panel. Natalia and I met in October – shortly after the recent mobilization in Russia – in Tbilisi, when the impression of a lot of young people, mostly men, was super strong in the city. And for me at that moment it made really sense when you, Natalia, explained that your image of the city is a city as a shelter. Some cities have spaces where people can find shelter. But these people also end up in a sort of a limbo, caught between the hell that they fled, but also waiting for the paradise they like to reach, the place where they actually want to go. I shared my impression with you, that the people coming to Tbilisi were not necessarily wanting to be there. It's just the place they could come to... the easiest. So this was our starting point.

The next person I have met at the preparation of this panel was Madlen Pilz. She's a social researcher. I don't want to give you the whole CV – you'll find it on the website of the conference. But I think it's important to say that Natalia always trying to find an approach by looking at metaphors or by looking at quite emotional aspects, maybe also intuitive findings. And after the [session's preparatory - LV] Zoom meetings with Madlen, I felt that you are very much focused on things you can observe as a sociologist, which I really appreciate. Because I was always trying to bring structure into all the inputs that we gathered in the discussions. Until I realized, okay, maybe we just don't have enough science to understand what's happening in cities like in Tbilisi or also in Berlin now when many people are traveling to there, and obviously in Kiev.
And I would like to introduce you to Kostya Doroshenko and Yana Movchak who will be translating for him. The real problem was that at these preparatory Zoom meetings, where we had sort of different approaches to discussing this situation, Konstantin was always absent. Because he had no electricity or not enough electricity and Internet connection in Kiev to actually participate in our discussions. Which had a consequence that we finally had to go back to the messenger of Facebook, which we tried to give up for a while, and to kind of communicate in a group chat. Which, as you all know, is also very tiring.

So this is the interesting grounds on which we built this panel. I have received materials from all of speakers. And I also suggested that the speakers prepared for the questions [we discussed at Zooms – LV] and will try to help make sense of the situation. I think yesterday [at the 1st day of the conference - LV] it was mentioned about the situation in Tbilisi, in particular, that a lot of Russians are coming, and the locals are afraid of the rent increase and many don't have jobs anymore. And someone in the audience mentioned something that I found extremely essential: we not only look at this situation in terms of the racist conflict, but also the class problem. I think it's those people who already don't have very solid grounds for living who are seriously frightened or threatened, the better way for them [to explain this difficult situation – LV] is by this recent migration. Lilia {Voronkova, the organizer of the panel] asked us to try to not fall into too many generalizations about the "Russians", the "locals" or the "Ukrainians". And I think it's something we have to be careful with. But when you are in the middle of these events, it's probably also difficult to always keep a distance since it's... impossible, probably. So I would just say, let's remember that it's basically also a class problem. <...> I think I would like to give a word now to Nataia. You are showing us the pictures [refers to the slides of presentation - LV], may be you can explain, what they show.

This is a work of a Georgian artist. When I was thinking about the limbo-city, that was the first work that came to my mind. This is very important to me because I like to refer to such things when I explain something. This artist was practicing for many years in Germany and also in Poland. This work was done in 2014. The name of this work is "Founded foreign bodies". Father of this artist was a doctor and he was taking these objects from the bodies of the kids during emergency procedures, because kids sometimes swallow something. All these items came from the kids' bodies and the doctor was collecting them. In 2014 artists asked her father to give these objects for her work. Her explanation was: each item is representing a life saved.

When I see this work I always think about her [artist]. Why? Because this was the first artist from Georgia who went abroad to study. She went to study in Holland, then she came to Germany. She was living there for many years. Just six years ago she came back to Georgia. When I see this work, I'm always thinking about these foreign bodies... There are foreign bodies that are coming and leaving your body. They could live in your body all your life and you will be like, okay, with these objects. But there are always objects that you just have to get out to save your life, because sometimes it's too difficult for the body to have them inside. So for me, it's very difficult to say, we have so many foreign bodies now in Georgia. Why foreign bodies? Because these people think that they are foreign bodies.

Last year I was traveling with one Italian photographer in Georgia and I was meeting with some refugees from 1992 from Abkhazia, they are living in Tskaltubo (Georgia). This was the place where I met them. They are still living there in amazing hotels from Soviet times. But now the government is giving apartments to these refugees, and the apartments are not really good... And when I was speaking with these people, they said that they are still waiting to turn back to their country. And that's like the moment when I've got the idea of a Limbo City. Because the limbo city is a city where people come, but they don't think they're going to live in that city. So now we have so many people in Georgia. After the Erdogan's politics we have so many Turkish people who are living in Tbilisi; many Iranians came before them and are coming now, too. After the war between Russia and Georgia people from Abkhazia and Osetiya came. And they all still think that they will come back to their... to the places they are from. That was so crazy, I met a person and she was 60 years old. She told: I was leaving a half of my life in Abkhazia and I am leaving a half of my life here. So 30 years there and 30 years here. And I don't know where I am. So where I am from, who I am. They [refugees] still think they're going to come back.

We have so many people from Azerbaijan, too. There are people mostly... juniors. We have so many people from... Belorussia, from Ukraine, of course. And from Russia with these three waves of coming.
The first wave was three years ago, and they are more or less like okay with the locals. We are even working with them and everything was okay. And the second wave was when the war began. There was a big discussion about whether this shelter could be given again to the Russians who are running? And I was like – yes, we have to do it. But then there were so many problems with newcomers [from Russia]. For example, the newcomers are thinking that there is not enough night life in Tbilisi. And we have nightclubs, but they are closed for them, of course. They don't like the stencils in the city... I have a feeling that when I'm walking in my city and even if there is no direct protest actions – someone is speaking with me. Because there are so many texts everywhere. They [newcomers from Russia - LV] don't like street dogs in Tbilisi. There are too many streets dogs. Yeas, it's a reality. But I like this, because these dogs are living with us and they have the same rights [to the city - LV] as we have. So dogs are not in the shelters, they are not killed as it's happening in many countries, too. They are living with us and I really like this. Everybody feeds them. So this is, of course, a huge problem when you have so many dogs. But all of them have someone who takes care of them.
We are living in a very poor country in Georgia. There are two cities to where the refugees are coming. These are Batumi and Tbilisi. So for now we have big problems with rents because they are becoming higher. [shows a photo on the slide with graffiti where it is written in Russian: "Here lives Vova" - LV]. And what we can hear? That the student who lost his studies and who returned back, he don't have anymore the apartment. The students can't afford an apartment. We can't afford apartment for us in Tbilisi and that is a big problem. And this is the result of some political everyday changes. And [refers to the slides with photographs - LV] here down is written: "We remember what happened last year, last summer". Last summer our government just lost th election. They won but they did it very wrongly.

And that was a text that was also discussed [refers to the photograph of insulting words addressing Russians on the walls of Tbilisi "Rusnya uebyvay" - LV]. The appearance of this text was associated with a Georgian cafe called "Dedaena". But for me it is a combination of words that does not come from Georgians. So there is also a conflict here between the Russians who came three years before and those who came after the war began and who [coming] now. Because [those] who are coming now are really [provoking] a big conflict. And situation is really, really changed and now it's very stressful. And it [the text on the wall] - LV was painted over again, and every time it is repainted, the text comes again and again.

I think it was Russians or maybe Ukrainians. I don't know. Because I... knew all the Georgians who make stencils. And I asked them. I knew all of them. But I don't think that was one of them. And why? This is not a combination of words we are speaking. Even the ones who knew Russian good. We will never say "Rusnya" and we would never say "uebyvay!". That might be Russians. Because when the newcomers came to Tbilisi it was a conflict between old [those, who came before - LV] and the newcomers.

[shows slide – image of questionnaire in "Dadaena" bar] It was one conflict between Russians and Ukrainians in the Georgian bar which name is "Dedaena". Then this club made the "visa" for citizens of Russia to enter to the bar, and there was a questionnaire [https://dedaenabar.ge/for- russians ]. They [owners of the bar] don't like if one speaks Russian or when they are moving directly to the person and begin to speak in Russian. Even I would not answer. If they [Russians] are coming to me and ask "do you know Russian?", then I will say: "Yes, I know and I can tell". But when they are coming to me directly and start immediately speaking in Russian "Skajite mne pozhaluista...", then I like... - "I don't know". So this happens in Georgian bars too. They don't speak with comers in Russian, they speak in English. And that is a questionnaire you have to answer to enter the bar. There was a big conflict because of this questionnaire. And then came this famous Russian journalist [Kseniya Sobchak - LV] and she was asking very... not correct questions. You can just find it also on-line and see it.

Yeah. This is everywhere! Tbilisi is full of the flags of Ukraine, texts supporting [Ukraine]. We also made a collection [of clothes in a designer shop - LV] with Ukrainian flags, and half of the money from the sale went to Ukraine.

She [journalist] is speaking Russian language. But she knew English, but she's not speaking English with him. But he answers in English to her, yeah, that's is so. And she's asking about Azerbaijan and Armenia some questions if it's okay to come for Azerbaijanian or Armenian and that was during this few days of war between them. And like to open these questions in Georgia. So it's very complicated. We have citizens from Azerbaijan and Armenia, their communities living. How can we live with this problem...

But they are common and living. There was a discussion yesterday and what the speakers were saying is that it's a good thing when refugees come to the cities and it's an economically good thing. It's not like this. Because they will come and just live in my country. And at the same time we don't have enough money, the Georgians. In the last year so many Georgians left Georgia to work abroad, to go to America, to work there, to come there or somewhere, to Italy, to work there, to just live. Even my friends did this. And last year it was the first time in my life I was thinking that maybe it's time for me also to leave this country. People who thought they were going to live in this country all their lives – they're leaving. And then are coming [Russian - LV] people... They can come, but they are coming as in a limbo city. They come and leave this city. They make no cultural influence, anything for my country. They don't take care about my country. So I am leaving and then no one takes care of [Georgia]... No one thinks about, for example, to take part in some protests action to make something better in my country. And no one takes care of the dogs, they [Russian newcomers - LV] don't like them and that's enough [for Russian newcomers -LV]. But I am thinking about these things. And these people [like me - LV] are leaving; then coming the new ones who just using it... They can use it. But then do not say to me that they have the right to say something in MY [stressing with intonation - LV] city as an artist! They don't have [this right - LV]! Because they have to know the context of where they are coming. What they can say to me!? In my country!?

I totally agree with you when you are talking about this responsibility of those people who come and stay. With the fact they have to be sensible to everything that is happening, instead of using the resources of the people who are doing a lot in order to protect them from being exposed to a danger. They also need to have respect to everything that they get...

Okay. I think it would be good to now... [people laugh]... I think this is a respect that we have been missing in the conversation yesterday. I mean, you can say migration [usually] leads to rich countries, but you're missing what is happening on all these steps that eventually lead to...

Or there is no integration, because they do not want to be integrated here. They are making their own cafes, they are making their own spaces. No, maybe we are also very closed. For example, the art scene is very closed.. especially for Russian who are coming. Because no one wants to work with them. Yeah, that is also happening. My friend, like a few days ago in Tbilisi talked: "Nata, we have to do something with this because we can't live like this. We have to communicate with them, we have to put them with us". And I said that I am the person who is communicating, but at the same time – why always we? You know... Why always we?

May I emphasize? Because actually without analyzing ... like you suggested – with a class category, what means that migration? Georgia has zero economic relations with these people. It's not like Germany, which provides social security... There [in Georgia] the guy [a migrant- LV] has to pay for everything. And it creates that... certain kind of idea of autonomy: "how do we relate to the state which doesn't care?". You can't leave because you are very scared to return, so many people can't be kicked out. So that's really... You have to be very complex, because of the particular economic relations. And at first [wave of migration from Russia - LV] there was super rich [Russians] which actually absolutely benefited from some kind of shadow economy in Georgia... Yeah, you have to really built onto these questions, not saying that all Russians doing that colonial bullshit. They just don't do. But there is a reason for this kid of situation...

I am from Poland, and I wanted to say. As I understood you, there are bohemian Russians who say there is no bohemian life there [in Tbilisi] But there is a [local] bohemia, but it is an exclusion [of Russian from local bohemian life - LV]... So bohemia is very very rich... And second, I wanted to ask you because I'm also interested in how you consider, what Georgians think about these places made by Russians, which provide free psychological help for Russian speaking people in Tbilisi? Because there are also Ukrainians and Russians who need it in Tbilisi... It does not happen to, how to speak, to help everyone. I don't want to say like... Well, in Tbilisi or Georgia there is living Ukrainians, and, of course, that is a very tough for them, and not so much [for Russians]. But I just know that some Russians are legitimizing their staying in Tbilisi by opening such centers. For example, close to my place there is "Dom", such an organization, they opened recently some kind of psychotherapy office or something. What do you think about this?

So, the last three days in Kyiv there was a complete blackout. In different cities throughout Ukraine it can be different, for example, in Irpen, this is the Kyiv region, friends have had only 3 hours with light and electricity over the past three days. So someone in different parts of Kyiv has 5 hours for the last three days, someone has 8. And in Kharkov it can also be different.

Kyiv is not only a city of refuge, it can also be a city of opportunities or even a long-awaited paradise for some people, because it is cozy, beautiful, humane. As an ancient city, which is 1500 years old, Kyiv hosted people of different ethnic groups, religions, cultures and itself has a low level of xenophobia. There are quite a lot of national communities in Kyiv, Assyrians, Georgians, Armenians, Azerbaijanis have been living here for a long time. After the collapse of the Soviet Union, many people fled to Kyiv, creating new communities. Victims of Russian aggression, occupation of part of Moldova, wars against Chechnya, Georgia arrived in Kyiv and found refuge there. In 2020, when the regime brutally cracked down on protests in Belarus, Kyiv and Ukraine in general accepted refugees from there. Since 2014, after the occupation of Crimea and Donbas, people from the east of Ukraine, from the Donetsk and Lugansk regions, have been resettled in Kyiv as internally displaced persons (IDPs). Since 2014, after the occupation of Crimea, the Crimean Tatars, who barely managed to settle down in their homeland, having returned from the Stalinist deportation, also fled to Kyiv and found their home there.

The situation is different with Russian people who fled Russia and wanted to take refuge in Kyiv. Kostiantyn communicated with Russian migrants or people who wanted to do business or just do something in Ukraine as a community of so-called "democratic Russians". And he worked in the editorial offices of the media with Russian managers and journalists. After the 2004 revolution – the so-called Orange Revolution – and especially after the 2014 revolution, people who came to Kyiv repeated the same phrase: "We breathe the air of freedom here." The Kievans treated them with sympathy, in Kyiv and in many parts of Ukraine, many speak Russian. But there was a certain specific behavior of those who came to Kyiv from Russia. Perhaps the point is the problems of Russian education, which is why Russians always believe that they know the history of Ukraine, Kyiv, Ukrainian culture better than the locals. As soon as they breathe in this "air of freedom", the Russians begin to tell people in Ukraine how to live better, how to build an economy, what to do in politics. They convince you and themselves that they understand the Ukrainian language and there is no need to learn it. But when you address them in Ukrainian, it turns out that many things are incomprehensible to them. Even after working for a long time in Ukraine, for example, as Yevgeny Kiselev [Russian TV journalist. – L.V.], having lived in Kyiv for more than 13 years, Russians remain confident that Ukrainians need Russian news, gossip, information about Russia, the nuances of life there. While working for the Ukrainian Radio Vesti, which was set up with Russian journalists, Kostiantyn noticed that they mentioned Putin so often on the air, as if they were paid five rubles every time they said the word "Putin." And, of course, since the full-scale invasion began, Russian passport holders in Kyiv and throughout Ukraine have had a hard time.

Here is a place in Kyiv [meaning the photo on the slide - L.V.], this is the Petrovich restaurant, its interior was created by the cartoonist Bilzho, you may have seen his work in the Kommersant newspaper. The establishment was founded in 2005. It shows the mood of the Russians, who were considered progressive, what interesting things were seen by those who had come to Ukraine from Russia by that time. This is an ironically nostalgic retrospective picture of the Soviet mentality. Soviet sideboards, carpets, lamps. "Petrovich" was a favorite place for emigrants from Russia, from politicians to journalists. It was also popular among Ukrainians, but almost immediately after 2014 it was closed. It was closed not because of repressions, but because the very Soviet agenda, whether it was nostalgia for those times or some kind of sympathy, turned out to be inappropriate in Ukraine – Russia attacked us with Soviet tanks. One gets the impression that the Russians, who have absorbed imperial propaganda and a colonial view of the world of their culture for generations, while living in Kyiv, loving Ukraine, have retained a false sense of their superiority, an exaggeration of their own competence.

As for the phrase that you, Nata, showed [on the slide with a photo from Tbilisi - L.V.] - "Rusnya fuck off", I can say with confidence that it was not Ukrainians who wrote this. With the beginning of the current stage of the war, we [Ukrainians] have one general formula against the Russians: "Russian warship, fuck you." So "Rusnya fuck off", this is not our wording. Thank you.

It's not so easy to connect now... To expose speeches as also as I didn't know before what Konstantin will say. So, yeah. Of course, the situation in Berlin... What I'm thinking about and what I can contribute to this talk about how the situation in Berlin is totally distinct. I mean, Berlin, I would never describe as Natalia did it and as Kiev, of course, is at the moment - it is not a limbo city in this sense. Berlin is a very well-structured city where the structures are very stabilized. So each communal department or administrative department has its resources to deal with it, with its task. And also, if we have an influx of refugees as we had in 2015 from Syria or then from from Ukraine and now also from Russia, of course, we have integration departments. They start to work and to use machinery - just as we called it already "integration industry" - is coming in to work. So and... [shows 2 images on the slide – LV] like what I brought here are two images from the Central station of Berlin, and it is the meeting point for the Ukrainian refugees. So they arrived with the trains which brought them from Poland, from Slovakia, or which way they choose. They were channeled through Europe to come to Berlin and they were met on the tracks by people dressed in those yellow vests, which you can see and were guided to this place when they got something to drink, something to eat. There is information in Ukrainian language and where they can go. And then there they were asked, well, do you have relatives, where you want to sleep or you want to go to another city? Or do you know, do you need a shelter here in a one of the so- called refugee camps? The point is, which is maybe quite interesting, because yesterday evening [at a first day of this conference - LV] there was sometimes a talk about this... Sergei Lagodinskiy was talking a little bit about it. And also, I think the... Russians went through a labyrinth in Tbilisi to settle... These are structures [in Germany] which are not existing in Tbilisi. We have the structures.

We have this money in Germany. It is an affluent country, but nevertheless most of this work is not done by the state. Most of this work is done by volunteers. And this is a quite interesting thing. And also most of this volunteers or many of this volunteers came from very different countries. Many of them have migrant backgrounds, migrant histories. There were Germans, that are Russian speaking migrants from the nineties, beginning of the 2000s, from Ukraine, from Russia, from Kazakhstan. There are even Syrian migrants that helping... medicians from Syria. Also Turkish people were there, of the second generation, who went up to help the people. And this is a point which I think is quite interesting.. It's quite important to think that... well, of course, to build up all this, you need resources. But at the same time, without people forming at this moment a kind of infrastructure, or... it is, while it is a term [infrastructures - LV] coming from social sciences... But yeah [without people - LV] from areas where actually not [rich ?] people are living, from areas where destitution and poverty is very high... So that people don't have anything to rely on but what people form for each other are these kind of infrastructures. That means they maybe can't give money, but what they can give is they can share what they have on their table. What they can give is they can share their knowledge about the place and where to go further. So what they can share is also their own hope, maybe. So this is meant by "people as infrastructure". So all this help or this welcoming wouldn't function without those people, without this kind of building infrastructure with our bodies, with our experiences, with our minds and sharing what we know, what we feel, what we have. And going back... Georgia doesn't have [such infrastructure - LV], it was one of the statements. And of course they can [do it] - I mean, Germany did it! We did not have it for a long time, too. I think the first time we realized that we have those kind of infrastructure in Germany or the people started to help, it was in 2015.

Well, you know, it's just because yesterday there was that statement. But also in Germany in 1950s started to arrive the first people... which needed help, orientation and so on – there was nothing! For maybe 50 – 60 years ago it was nothing. And even in the 1990s when Russians, the Russian-speaking migration came the first wave, I mean... They didn't get the same help, welcoming and the same help. So I think even countries, as it seems, countries need some time...

It was not me saying that. Actually, I just was answering to a statement which was made yesterday by another woman. So. Well, I took up at this statement, but I'm not saying that. Yes, of course Germany has a privilege. Bit its not...

I think it was a point that Germany didn't suffer from Russian Federation that much like Georgia did, because 20% from Georgia is occupied by Russian Federation. And that is why Germany has more resources... to maintain this kind of structures...

Yes, I know that you have the questions. Is it good to... I mean, it's interesting to see how difficult it is becoming to talk about these things.

Thank you, Madlen, I think that was brilliant point. Yes, we can applause. I know that there is one question that was very important... or a comment.

And what do you think or where would the solution or inaction? I mean, as a response to your...

Now this community is living on the streets of Tbilisi... in Saburtalo.

I apologize! I would like to respond to a comment about the position of the Georgians and their attitude towards the Russians who fled Russia. And you can be sure that such behavior and this position are similar or even the same in Ukraine. Ukraine and Georgia are countries whose territories were occupied by Russia. And when your country is occupied, it reduces empathy for the representatives of the aggressor country, restrains your enthusiasm in helping them. Regardless of whether they come with money or not. And regarding your comment, is there a solution to the problem of militarization. There are examples in history of states whose militarism regularly pushed them to show aggression. They became the initiators of world wars in the last century. These are Japan and Prussia. By the decision of the world community after World War II, Japan and Prussia were demilitarized once and for all. Maybe you know that Japan is not allowed to have an army. So the solution and the answer can and should be the complete demilitarization of Russia under the control of the world community. So that it no longer has the opportunity to produce weapons to attack its neighbors, to maintain an army. This would be the solution to the problem of aggression and would guarantee peace for many decades to come.

So thank you for these words! Let's go downstairs.